📄 原视频文字版全文（whisper 本地转写，点击展开）
【开场｜图书馆】
【Emily Chang】
I love this library.
It is an absolutely beautiful library.
Are you a big reader?
【Dario Amodei】
You know, I mean, I read a lot in general.
I don't know that I've had that much time over the last year or so.
【旁白】
Dario Amade is an unlikely AI celebrity. [原文: Amade → 推测: Amodei]
He's known for warning the world about the risks of artificial intelligence.
Now, his company is an AI frontrunner, valued at nearly a trillion dollars.
【Emily Chang】
You're shipping so much, so fast. How are you doing that?
【Dario Amodei】
We use Claude, you know, across the product development cycle, and it allows us to release very fast.
【旁白】
Founded by a team of open AI defectors in 2021, Anthropic started out as an underdog lab.
Today, it's the breakout star, wiping billions in value off software stocks,
going head-to-head with the Pentagon, and creating models allegedly powerful enough to burst through the walls of modern cybersecurity.
【Dario Amodei】
Some of the early companies that we gave this to said things like,
this is a superweapon. Please don't release this.
【旁白】
Guiding Anthropic through this is a sibling duo.
Dario, the brother and visionary, and Daniela, the sister and operator,
who puts Dario's swirling cosmic thoughts into action.
【Daniela Amodei】
Dario and I, we've always been really close since we were little,
but I think we always really wanted to do something big together.
【Emily Chang】
Okay, but when you argue, who wins?
【Daniela Amodei】
No one.
No one.
【旁白】
As the AI arms race escalates, the Amadeys are eager to establish themselves as the good guys. [原文: Amadeys → 推测: Amodeis]
But Anthropic's technology could have profound implications for how humanity works,
learns, thinks, even fights wars.
【新闻画面】
Anthropic is run by an ideological lunatic.
【Dario Amodei】
This is a debate about what the proper use of AI by the government is.
At some point, the models become very dangerous.
You know, the bad guys will have it too.
And at that point, we have to make sure the good guys have an even better model.
【旁白】
The name Anthropic actually comes from the Greek word for human,
which speaks to their mission to build responsible AI for the long-term benefit of humanity.
Can you actually do that when you're building the most powerful technology in the world?
【Q1｜平滑指数】
【Emily Chang】
You are at the center of the AI universe right now.
What does that feel like?
【Dario Amodei】
The experience I've had for my whole career,
and certainly the whole time at Anthropic,
is that there's this kind of smooth exponential.
And the experience of the smooth exponential is,
nothing's happening, nothing's happening, nothing's happening.
Little things happen, and then Zoom, it goes crazy.
So, you know, I was watching this graph for a while,
and I said, oh yeah, we'll probably become the, you know,
the AI company with, you know, the most revenue and the most valuation
sometime around this time.
And indeed, it has happened.
We're just keeping in mind all the things we usually keep in mind.
You know, how do we train good models?
How do we put them in good products?
How do we make sure that everything's safe?
【Q2｜旧金山童年】
【Emily Chang】
What were you like as a kid growing up in San Francisco?
I know your dad was a leather craftsman,
your mom worked in libraries.
How did that shape you?
【Dario Amodei】
You know, the whole, you know, like, first, you know,
internet revolution was happening around me,
and I had absolutely no interest in it.
I was just interested in, like, doing math and, like, scrawling,
you know, scrawling things.
I was interested in, like, you know, understanding the universe.
I was interested in science fiction.
I think I just felt a lot of curiosity about the world.
【Emily Chang】
What was it like growing up with Dario?
【Daniela Amodei】
He was so smart.
He was taking, you know, calculus when he was, you know,
in, I think, like, middle school.
He took math classes at UC Berkeley when he was in high school.
I was actually more into reading and arts,
so we were almost like complete compliments in that way.
【旁白】
Dario studied neuroscience before turning to AI at Baidu and later Google,
while Daniela started out as an early employee at Stripe.
They lived together in San Francisco, along with Daniela's husband, Holden Karnofsky.
Then, in 2016, Dario joined the newly formed OpenAI,
followed by Daniela in 2018.
The company began as a nonprofit that promised a safe, more open path to superintelligence.
【Daniela Amodei（旧影像）】
I think we need to think right now about how we want this deployed,
how everyone gets the benefit from it, how we're going to govern it,
how we're going to make it safe and sort of good for humanity.
【旁白】
At OpenAI, Dario developed the concept of scaling laws,
predicting that large language models would improve
simply by adding more data and computing power,
even if the underlying algorithm stayed the same.
【Dario Amodei】
At that point in time, I know it sounds crazy now looking back,
not a lot of people believed,
hey, scale-up is the way that these models are going to get smarter and better.
That was sort of an unusual, countercultural, scientific perspective
that I think was really held by our founding research team.
【旁白】
That approach helped supercharge OpenAI's models,
paving the way for ChatGPT.
But the Amides reportedly clashed with Altman [原文: Amides → 推测: Amodeis]
over the company's direction and values.
Altman has said,
For all the differences I have with Anthropic,
I mostly trust them as a company.
【Q3｜离开 OpenAI】
【Emily Chang】
Your decision to leave OpenAI has become Silicon Valley lore.
What did you disagree on?
【Dario Amodei】
Look, I'm going to say it very simply.
There are many valid disagreements to be had on safety.
We certainly had some of those disagreements with them,
but that alone is not sufficient to leave.
When you feel that you can't trust someone,
when you feel that their values are not what they say they are,
when you feel that they're not honest,
that makes it very hard to, you know,
to continue to work with the company,
to continue to trust the company.
And look, at the end of the day,
why argue with someone when you don't have the same vision
and you don't trust them?
The way to resolve it is you go off and do your thing,
they go off and do their thing.
【Q4｜Presidio Park 与七位联创】
【Emily Chang（外景）】
So this is Prasida Park. [原文: Prasida Park → 推测: Presidio Park]
When Dario and Daniela decided to leave OpenAI to start Anthropic,
this is where the early team would get together.
It was during the pandemic, so the story goes,
and a bunch of early employees would come here,
they'd pull up a chair on the grass,
they'd have lunch,
and they'd talk about what they were building.
【Daniela Amodei】
When we started this company,
there were seven co-founders, of which me and Daniela are too. [原文: me and Daniela → 推测: me and Dario]
And now, you know, we're basically the only company in the space
that has all of its co-founders still here.
You don't get to, you know,
be a company of the size and scale that we are with that happening.
Like, that almost never happens.
【旁白】
From the start, Anthropic pitched itself
as the ultimate safety-conscious AI company.
Dario has published long essays
with names like Machines of Loving Grace
and the adolescence of technology,
musing on the miraculous potential of AI,
as well as the worst-case scenarios.
Anthropic's chatbot, Claude,
has been trained to follow a set of principles
called a constitution,
intended to keep it on the straight and narrow.
【Q5｜职业温暖】
【Emily Chang】
Claude has a very distinct style and feel,
a human name.
What are you trying to convey?
【Dario Amodei】
I think when people interact with Claude
versus, you know, other systems,
there is more of a feeling of,
I like to describe it as professional warmth.
So the goal is not for it to be your best friend,
but it's not for it to be sort of cold,
rote, calculating.
It should feel approachable,
but distant, right?
Professional.
【Q6｜好模型与坏模型】
【Emily Chang】
Anthropic has talked about teaching Claude to be good.
What is a good model?
What is a bad model?
【Dario Amodei】
You don't want a model that lies
accidentally or intentionally, right?
Lying we call hallucinations.
It makes something up.
The models are just trained to predict the next word,
so sometimes they don't know
and they just invent something.
Models sometimes,
as we've shown in our research,
can purposely try to deceive you.
We have to make sure that doesn't happen
in production models
that we expose to customers.
And then there's a lot of work around harmlessness,
just making sure that the model
is not accidentally producing,
you know, information that is wrong or harmful
or could cause someone to do something bad.
【Q7｜价值观从哪来】
【Emily Chang】
Whose values are being put into Claude?
Like, is there a universal good?
There's so many religions,
so many different beliefs.
Like, how do you even decide that?
【Dario Amodei】
So, of course, there's no universal standard
for what makes something helpful or harmless,
but there are founding documents in human history,
like the UN Declaration of Human Rights,
that we can use to train Claude's character.
And I think, you know,
interestingly on the religious front,
we've actually started to have a lot of conversations
with religious leaders
around how should we think about,
you know, Claude the entity
and how can we bake in
some of the kind of core values
that are consistent across religions,
types of belief,
that really just transcend,
you know, a specific worldview,
but that are really things
that human beings have been grappling with
for millennia.
【Q8｜保姆病】
【Emily Chang】
Have you tried to give Claude
a trait that didn't take,
or was there any trait that emerged
that surprised you?
【Dario Amodei】
I think in the early days,
it's funny to look back on them now,
the kind of early Claude's,
Claude II era,
sometimes Claude would be
almost a little bit nanny-ish.
Claude's like,
I'm really concerned about you.
And you're like,
Claude, I was asking for the weather, right?
It was something really benign.
Thankfully, we didn't, you know,
release most of the most egregious versions of those.
But I think it is, you know,
it is, when you think about it,
it's like tuning a dial.
And so our researchers
have this very fine needle to thread
in order to land at the center of that.
【Q9｜押注编码与企业级】
【旁白】
Whatever Anthropic is doing with Claude,
it seems to be working.
Anthropic's revenue has skyrocketed
over the past year,
making the company profitable
for the first time.
That's largely thanks to the company's focus
on more lucrative business tools.
Claude Code, a major leap
that automated large chunks
of software engineering.
And Claude Cowork,
which gave that power to everyone else.
【Emily Chang】
Now, early on,
others focused on fun,
splashy consumer apps.
You made a bet on coding and enterprise.
Why did you make that bet?
Was it a values decision
or a business decision?
【Dario Amodei】
Look, if you pick a business model
that fundamentally conflicts
with your values,
you're going to have a hard time, right?
Either you betray your own values
or you become irrelevant.
And so when we thought about it,
we said, look,
we've seen the world of social media,
the consumer world.
It really seems to encourage engagement,
even addiction.
The slop we've seen with AI video models,
it's like, what's going on?
Does it want to maximize the number of minutes
that you're paying attention to?
Because that's the advertising
revenue-driven incentive.
Whereas if we look at enterprise,
look, I mean, you know,
we want to make these models useful to people.
We want to use AI to, you know,
cure diseases that we couldn't cure before, right?
Well, that's working with biotech.
It's working with pharma.
It's working with academic research groups.
All of those are enterprises, right?
We want to use AI to like, you know,
to make energy cheaper and more efficient.
That's all enterprise.
And so I think it serves us well
to have this business model
that largely aligns with our values.
【Q10｜SaaS 末日】
【旁白】
Soon after Claude Cowork was released,
$285 billion in market value vanished overnight.
Traders called it the sasspocalypse. [原文: sasspocalypse → 推测: SaaSpocalypse]
This kind of white-collar wipeout story
in the software sector, terrifying.
Some of those are down for nine days in a row,
so clearly the tension is building.
【Emily Chang】
If AI continues improving at this pace,
how much of traditional software
gets replaced and how fast?
【Dario Amodei】
I think with AI, like, the pie is getting bigger, right?
So the existing incumbents
may be smaller in relative terms.
Some of them may go down in value.
Some of them may even go out of business
if they don't adapt in the right way.
But, like, I would guess that the software industry
gets larger, not smaller,
although there will be some big losers.
Those who don't kind of see what's coming,
who don't identify the moats they have,
they're going to have a really hard time.
【Q11｜Boris Cherny】
【旁白】
It's sort of a quiet cafe.
Okay.
Anthropic's recent growth spurt
might not have happened without this man,
Boris Cherny, [原文: Cherny → 推测: Cherney]
the engineer behind Claude Code and Claude Cowork.
When Anthropic hired him in 2024,
Cherny was living a very different life
in rural Japan.
【Boris Cherny】
There was a lot of farmer's markets,
like, very slow.
We were making miso.
That was sort of the big hobby.
And I remember using the first AI chatbot
that I'd ever used,
and it just took my breath away.
And I was just like,
oh, my God, I have to just be a part of this.
And I'm also just such a big sci-fi reader,
and so I just know how bad this thing can go.
Like, this technology is incredibly powerful.
And so we moved back.
【Emily Chang】
You created Claude Code.
You led the development of Claude Cowork.
What problem were you trying to solve?
【Boris Cherny】
If you look at the coding products,
they were all pretty simple.
It was sort of like, you know,
like, complete the word, complete the sentence.
That was the extent of AI in coding.
And we just wanted to make a way bigger bet.
And our bet was,
we think actually a coding agent can do all of it.
【Q12｜100% 的代码】
【Boris Cherny】
A year and a half ago,
you wrote the code by hand.
And sometimes you press tab,
and it would autocomplete a line.
Now I talk to my Claude,
and it writes the code.
And then while it does that,
I talk to the next Claude,
and it writes some code.
And at any point,
I have either, you know,
like a few Claude's running
and up to a few thousand Claude's running,
doing things.
【Emily Chang】
How much code is Claude writing
internally for engineers here?
【Boris Cherny】
It's writing almost all of it.
On my team,
so for me personally,
it's been writing 100% of my code
for every six months.
The work of engineering
has just completely changed.
I feel like I suddenly have superpowers.
I have like a jetpack.
And engineering has never been this fun.
【Emily Chang】
Can we give Claude a spin?
【Boris Cherny】
Yeah, let's do this.
All right.
All right, so let's make
like a little recipe app.
So make a recipe app.
What do you want it to do?
【Emily Chang】
I would love it to suggest meals
for the week.
【Boris Cherny】
So, you know,
this is going to take
maybe a few minutes.
And let's just see
if Claude builds this.
All right.
Oh, it gave me some options.
Hmm.
Let's do...
These look pretty tasty, actually.
I could do a Greek chicken power bowl.
【Emily Chang】
When I click on a recipe,
I want it to show me
how to do it.
Thank you.
【Boris Cherny】
Aw.
I'm sure Claude appreciates it.
I always try to say thank you.
【Emily Chang】
Yeah, I always try to be nice, too.
I don't know.
【旁白】
A recipe app
might not be the most
mind-blowing demo
of Anthropics technology,
but what Claude code
just did in minutes
used to take hours or days.
For some,
that looks like a big opportunity.
【Emily Chang】
Are you, like,
nervous about next week
or is it, like...
【Boris Cherny】
What's next week?
【Emily Chang】
Your developer conference.
【Boris Cherny】
Oh, yes.
Yes.
There's so many things
happening every week.
【Emily Chang】
I know.
【Q13｜开发者大会】
【旁白】
Year over year,
API volume is up
nearly 17x on the cloud.
In the last 12 months,
we shipped eight frontier models
to developers and users.
Welcome to the second annual
Code with Claude conference,
where Claude superfans come
hoping to get a glimpse
of the future.
【Anthropic 高管】
We're having a lot of fun.
There's a ton of adrenaline.
This is the first year
we've grown faster
than the exponential.
In the first quarter
of this year,
we saw,
if you were to annualize it,
80x growth per year.
【开发者/参会者】
I use Claude every day
in the form of Claude code
to do all sorts of stuff,
not just write code.
I write way more code
than I did five years ago.
I've got the confidence
of, I don't know,
a 22-year-old with VC money.
I'm not 22.
My friend invited me,
and it's been,
it's amazing as someone
that's not really technical,
which I think is really
interesting just to see
what everyone's working on,
what's out there.
I think the concerning part
and the exciting part is,
hey, they can do things
that we couldn't dream of
and timelines we couldn't
ever expect.
But the kind of alternate side
of that reality is,
you really have to be prepared
because they will really be
a thousand times more productive.
【Q14｜工程师是牺牲品吗】
【旁白】
All of this raises
an obvious question.
Will engineers be the first casualties
of the AI they're building?
【Emily Chang】
It's been revenge of the nerds
for a while.
Is that over?
【Dario Amodei】
I think we all become nerds.
【Emily Chang】
But what happens
to the actual nerds?
【Dario Amodei】
I think the actual nerds,
well, they have to figure it out.
Yeah, I think for a lot of them,
the skill that they had before
is going to help them
in the future
because they sort of have
a pretty big head start.
They do a lot of things
that are not coding.
Engineers also have to talk to users.
They have to plan.
They have to think about what's next.
So I think these are still
parts of engineering
that are going to stick around.
【Q15｜50% 预测还成立吗】
【旁白】
Silicon Valley may have AI fever,
but elsewhere,
the mood is less upbeat.
70% of Americans think
AI will kill jobs,
and nearly a third worry
theirs will be one of them.
Dario Amadei has been [原文: Amadei → 推测: Amodei]
outspoken about this issue,
and some of his predictions
don't exactly sound reassuring.
【Dario Amodei（旧影像）】
I think we could have
this very unusual combination
of very fast GDP growth
and high unemployment
or at least underemployment
or, you know, low-wage job,
a lot of low-wage jobs,
high inequality.
【Emily Chang】
You've been really direct
about job loss.
AI could eliminate
half of all entry-level
white-collar jobs
in the next one to five years.
That was a year ago.
AI has moved incredibly fast.
Is it still 50%
or is it higher?
【Dario Amodei】
I don't know exactly,
but I'm still pretty concerned.
I'm still the same order of concerns.
You know, we are seeing right now
that AI is making people
more productive,
but that's the usual hump.
You automate 90% of the job,
great, people are 10 times
more productive
in the other 10%
because they're 10 times
more leveraged,
but eventually it gets
close to 100%.
Now, the sequel to that is,
well, then you have to find
something else for them to do.
Right now, AI makes
the software engineers
more productive,
even though AI writes
all the code
or almost all the code.
But we're already starting
to see the beginning
of like, you know,
there may be some people
that it's not making
more productive,
that it's better for the AI
to just do the thing.
【Emily Chang】
How does that sit with you?
【Dario Amodei】
It's very uncomfortable.
Yeah.
And I think this is,
this is the reason
why I chose to go to Anthropik. [原文: Anthropik → 推测: Anthropic]
And I think this is the reason
that a lot of people here
chose to go here
is artificial intelligence
is this force
that is far bigger
than we are.
But here,
we can hopefully
make it go a little bit better.
【Emily Chang】
Do you feel like it's your job
to do something about that
or is that someone else's problem?
【Dario Amodei】
I think it's a thing
that we have to talk about.
We have to advocate for it.
Ultimately,
it's up to society
to solve it.
This is bigger than one company.
【Q16｜回击"末日营销"】
【Emily Chang】
There has been a lot
of pushback on,
you know,
your,
and I know you've said
you're trying to warn people,
but that,
you know,
you're,
you know,
Jensen Huang said
you're conflating tasks
with jobs.
AI is creating jobs.
Anybody who is saying
that AI is wiping out jobs
is scaring people.
Other folks have said this,
you know,
it's sort of doom marketing.
That benefits Anthropik.
【Dario Amodei】
So,
so I want to be really clear
and push back hard
against this.
In every interview,
I talk about the,
the possible ways
to address these risks
from tax
and macroeconomic policy
to what the new jobs are.
In the adolescence
of technology,
I have like five pages
where I lay out
the difference
between tasks and jobs,
why this time is different
than other times.
But social media,
which I detest,
which I detest
as a category,
people have
these three-second clips
from,
you know,
from a year ago.
I've,
I've written
much more carefully
about these things
where I talk about the risks.
So these are,
this,
this,
the idea that this is
cheap marketing
is itself cheap marketing.
I think it's,
it's part of the disease
of Silicon Valley.
It's been caught up
in this social media world
of,
of,
of three seconds.
And so my message
is just definitely not
doom is coming.
My message is like,
this is something,
you know,
that we should see coming,
that we're worried about
and that we need
to actually respond
to positively.
【Q17｜哪些工作会留下】
【旁白】
Beyond the software industry,
the potential impact
of AI on jobs
seems harder to predict.
Anthropic has published
a paper estimating
which fields
could make the most use
of AI in the near future.
If its predictions
are right,
management,
finance,
and legal jobs
could soon look
very different.
【Emily Chang】
Which jobs go away?
Who gets replaced?
And what new jobs
are created?
【Dario Amodei】
So no one knows
for sure.
Because,
you know,
the economy
is unpredictable,
right?
The thing that,
that we have going
for us here
is the pie
is going to expand
a lot.
And so because
the pie is going
to expand a lot,
there are probably
going to be places
where people can go.
It's just a matter
of finding them
fast enough.
【Emily Chang】
So play this out
for me a little bit.
You know,
you wake up
in five years,
you know,
what does this country
look like?
What are those people
doing?
Because if there's
that much unemployment,
is that not how
revolutions start?
【Dario Amodei】
Yeah,
no,
this is the outcome
we want to prevent.
This is absolutely
the outcome
we want to prevent.
I think there's
a few places.
None of them
are guaranteed,
we're not sure,
but there's
the physical world.
We need a lot
of more people
to make,
build,
manufacture things
in the physical world.
Anything that's
human-centered,
I think that's
going to be a big deal,
right?
People,
or at least some people,
want to talk to humans.
So these kind of
human relationship-driven jobs,
like,
I think those
are going to be important.
And I think there'll be
some effort
by the humans
to kind of direct
the AIs, right?
At some level,
it has to be in line
with someone's values
and someone's intentions.
And so I think
there's going to be
some role there,
although I don't know
how thin versus
how thick it will be.
I think I feel
a little bit more hopeful
that humans will continue
to find ways
to leverage AI,
to be productive,
to do the parts
of the work
that are meaningful
to us
that only humans can do.
I think the human-to-human
interaction
will never fully go away.
The example I often
reach for
is what will happen
in medicine.
Today,
we hire doctors
who are expert
diagnosticians.
I think AI
is going to soon
be pretty good
at telling you
what the suite of options
of things that are wrong
with you
and what tests to run,
and you won't need
a doctor to do that.
But an AI
can't physically examine you
and say,
hey, does it hurt
when I press here?
They can't have
a bedside manner
with you
that says,
tell me how you're
feeling about this.
How are you coping
with going through
this process?
And I think we're
going to pivot
something like medicine
to be much more
focused on the
interpersonal
because the diagnostic
tools are going
to become much better,
but the interpersonal
human part,
that's not going to change.
【Q18｜没人向 Dario 汇报】
【Emily Chang】
Explain this to me.
Daniela runs
day-to-day operations.
All the leadership
team reports to you.
Yes.
No one reports to you.
That sounds like
a pretty sweet job.
【Dario Amodei】
It's incredibly freeing.
It lets me do
all the things
that I do
much more easily
than I would otherwise.
【Emily Chang】
And she does
all the work?
Is that what you're saying?
【Dario Amodei】
If you had to go
through the things
I had to go through
during D.O.W.
or...
No.
【Q19｜谁在 YOLO】
【旁白】
The Amadeus hope [原文: Amadeus → 推测: Amodeis]
AI can have a utopian
influence on society,
but there's no denying
the technology's
destructive and
dystopian potential.
Anthropic is at the
center of a
technological arms race
with powerful governments
vying for control.
Dario has charged
head-on into this arena,
he's not afraid
to blast his competitors.
【Dario Amodei】
And then I think
there are some players
who, you know,
who are YOLOing,
who pull the wrist
dial too far,
and I'm very concerned.
【Emily Chang】
Who is YOLOing?
【Dario Amodei】
So, that's a question
I'm not going to answer.
I've been very outspoken
about the need
for export controls
on ships to China. [原文: ships → 推测: chips]
I say this because
I think it would be
really bad for America,
for, you know,
the state of democracy
in the world,
for, you know,
China to be ahead
in AI capabilities.
And, you know,
it's like some
of the chip makers
obviously don't agree
with that view.
But it hasn't stopped
me from saying it.
Even after we've signed
more partnerships,
I'm sure they wish
we didn't say these things,
but these things
are what I believe.
And so, you know,
look, we're all adults here.
We can work together
on one thing
while disagreeing
about another thing.
【旁白】
Amadeh's statements [原文: Amadeh's → 推测: Amodei's]
about geopolitics
date back to his days
at Caltech.
As a sophomore
physics student,
he developed a reputation
as an anti-war advocate
who believed scientists
shouldn't sit in ivory towers.
It's a worldview
that would later define
Anthropic's position
on the future of war.
【Q20｜反战立场 vs 国防部合同】
【Emily Chang】
You've had a longstanding
anti-war stance,
and yet you were
one of the first
AI companies
to sign a contract
with the Department of Defense
to operate
on classified networks.
These are the networks
that the U.S. uses
to fight wars.
Explain that.
【Dario Amodei】
Look, I mean,
the world changes.
Like, you know,
my view of this technology,
you know,
worries me that we have
a kind of resurgent
authoritarian block,
that they're very aggressive
and that we need
to defend ourselves.
You know,
I may not agree
with every policy
of either administration,
but, you know,
that's why we've generally
been supportive of this.
【Emily Chang】
You've been working
with Palantir since 2024.
【Dario Amodei】
That's right.
【Emily Chang】
You know,
their technology
is used by ICE,
police departments in Gaza.
Is Claude being used
for surveillance
in other ways?
【Dario Amodei】
Uh, we don't work
with ICE,
either through Palantir
or anyone else.
We don't work with CBP.
I don't believe
we work in Gaza.
We're very careful
about, you know,
scoping our engagements
to things that we believe in.
【Q21｜五角大楼对峙】
【旁白】
In 2025,
Anthropic,
along with OpenAI,
XAI,
and Google,
won a $200 million contract
with the Pentagon.
Anthropic framed it
as an opportunity
to become the leading
AI vendor
for the government.
Claude was reportedly
used by the U.S. military
in the operation
to seize Venezuelan
President Nicolas Maduro.
Weeks later,
everything started
to unravel.
【新闻画面】
We bring you
breaking news
from Anthropic.
The Department of Defense
demand that Anthropic
allow full use
of its AI technology
without guardrails.
Anthropic drew red lines,
refusing to let Claude
be used for mass surveillance
and autonomous weapons,
putting the company
on a collision course
with the Pentagon.
The tech giant
facing a deadline today
to accept conditions
or be blacklisted.
Does a commercial entity
have the right
to determine
how their products
are used
by the military?
【旁白】
Lawsuits were filed
and Anthropic
was banned
from the Pentagon,
underscored
by strong words
from President Trump
and Defense Secretary
Pete Hegseth.
【新闻画面】
Anthropic is run
by an ideological lunatic
who shouldn't have
a sole decision-making
over what we do.
【Emily Chang】
Do you mind
being called
an ideological lunatic
or a bunch
of left-wing nutjobs?
【Dario Amodei】
You know,
I've been called
worse things than that
all the time.
【Emily Chang】
What does winning
this fight
actually look like?
【Dario Amodei】
I won't even call it
a fight.
This is more a debate
about what the proper
use of AI
by the government is.
And AI is an emerging
new technology.
We don't understand
the ways in which
it's reliable
or unreliable.
We don't understand
the ways in which
it promotes our values
or undermines our values.
And so one of the things
that I thought
was important
was to establish
a precedent
on some of the
use cases we think
are good,
which frankly
is most of them,
and some of the use cases
that we're concerned about.
【Q22｜一天 5000 个目标】
【Emily Chang】
A U.S. official
has said,
with the help of LLM,
the U.S. military
has gone from being able
to hit 1,000 targets a day
to 5,000 targets a day.
That means Claude
can help kill more people
more quickly.
Are you comfortable
with that?
【Dario Amodei】
Basically,
you're asking,
like, you know,
do you believe
in this country, right?
Do you want this country
to be a more powerful actor
rather than a less powerful actor
on the world stage?
I do.
I'm a patriot.
It's not up to me.
If we provide a technology,
it's not up to us
to say you can do
this military operation
and you can't do
that military operation.
Now,
I might privately believe
that this military operation
makes sense
and that military operation
is a bad idea,
but we're not going
to deny the technology.
You basically have to,
you know,
you have to leave policy
in the hands
of the military decision makers.
【Q23｜伊朗女子学校】
【旁白】
Bloomberg has reported
that Claude is being used
by the U.S. military
in the war in Iran
to do AI-assisted targeting
via a platform
made by Palantir
Maven Smart System.
In February,
a U.S. missile reportedly
hit a girl's school in Iran,
killing more than 150 people,
most of them children.
【Emily Chang】
Did Claude play a role
in that strike?
【Dario Amodei】
We don't know exactly
how, you know,
these models were used.
You know,
obviously, like, you know,
these things that,
you know,
mistakes that happen
in warfare
are really, really terrible.
Like, this is a really
terrible thing to happen.
We were willing
to risk the future
of our company
to, like, limit
how, you know,
these models are used.
And, you know,
what you're talking
about is a use case
that doesn't even
violate our red lines.
We're worried
that there will be
100 times as much,
you know,
with use cases
that do violate
our red lines.
Now, you know,
again, I would say,
I think overall,
the use of these,
the use of these models
is appropriate.
I think it's good on net.
You know,
but military decision makers
make terrible mistakes,
even at the best of times.
And I don't know
if we're in the best of times.
What we've seen here
is Claude assists,
but a human makes
the final call.
So a human made
that final call,
not Claude.
Imagine if you had a world
in which,
not Claude,
because we haven't allowed it,
but someone else's AI model,
the AI model just makes
the decision
and the human never sees it.
That's what we were
standing up for.
That's what we were
fighting against.
【Emily Chang】
This school had a website.
You could have found it
in a Google search.
Like, shouldn't Claude
have spotted that?
And does it speak
to a scarier issue
about using technology
as a shortcut in war?
【Dario Amodei】
The principle
that was obeyed here
is a human makes the,
a human makes
the final decision.
I don't know
what role Claude
or any other AI had,
but like,
if this isn't an illustration
why that principle
is so important,
I don't know what is.
【Q24｜AI 战争与奇爱博士】
【Emily Chang】
Is AI warfare
more likely
to stop World War III,
a war between
the U.S. and China,
or is it more likely
to make it happen?
【Dario Amodei】
I would say,
on balance,
it is more likely
to stop it.
But if we have
no limits
on how it's used,
then I think,
you know,
it could be more likely
to cause it.
You've seen Dr. Strangelove,
right?
The premise of it
was like,
you know,
you have a doomsday device
that automatically
fires nuclear weapons
when it thinks
nuclear weapons
are being fired at it.
What could go wrong,
right?
I think the way
conflicts happen
is that,
you know,
the two sides
jump at each other.
They misunderstand each other.
And when we don't have
proper oversight
of this technology,
I think those kinds
of accidents
are more likely to happen.
Now,
I think if AI
is used in an appropriate
way in not even warfare,
but think of just
intelligence collection,
you know,
like,
you know,
our adversaries
will think twice
about,
you know,
about conducting
some kind of invasion
or military operation
if we know everything
that they're doing.
【Q25｜如何扛压力】
【Emily Chang】
How do you handle
the pressure?
【Dario Amodei】
I try very hard
to communicate
and always be
straightforward and honest.
I get up in front
of the company
every two weeks
and just talk
for an hour
about just what's
on my mind,
what's going on
in the industry,
what's going on
in the outside world.
It's totally uncensored.
And not only
does it build trust,
it's very freeing
for me,
where I feel
that I have
3,000 people
who are on the same page
as me,
that is an incredible
amplifier
and is one of the most
useful things
in handling the pressure.
Then when we have to
confront an external challenge,
stand up to,
you know,
some very difficult situations
that we've seen
in the last few months,
that is what allows us
to have a consistent
and coherent position.
And I think
it's an incredible advantage
because I never feel
like I'm alone.
【Q26｜Mythos 超级武器】
【旁白】
Lurking in the background
at Anthropix headquarters [原文: Anthropix → 推测: Anthropic's]
was the surprise development
of a new AI model
called Mythos,
a model so powerful
it spooked everyone.
【新闻画面】
Anthropix making headlines [原文: Anthropix → 推测: Anthropic]
almost on a weekly basis
and most notably
now around Mythos.
The company believes
it's this enormous threat.
Imagine a world where
everyone had a nuclear
bazooka, basically.
【旁白】
Mythos identified
thousands of cybersecurity
vulnerabilities,
exposing potential flaws
in every major operating system.
Anthropix signaled
that if fully released,
Mythos could hack banks,
pry open state secrets,
and cripple
critical infrastructure.
【Dario Amodei】
I think the thing
that surprised me
most about it
was the models
had been climbing
in their ability
to find vulnerabilities.
It was a particularly
large jump.
Some of the early companies
that we gave this to
said things like,
this is a super weapon.
You should have to own
a gun license to use it.
Please don't release this.
【旁白】
In an initiative
called Project Glasswing,
Anthropix gave select
organizations access
to Mythos.
Even federal agencies
like the National Security
Administration
clamored to use it,
despite Anthropix's
blacklisting by the Pentagon.
【Dario Amodei】
I think the future
is this kind of
cat and mouse game
where we need to make sure
the good guys
have the tools
that they need to defend.
And then at some point,
the bad guys
will have it too.
And at that point,
we have to make sure
the good guys
have an even better model
so they can be ready for this.
【Emily Chang】
Is it possible to stay ahead
of the bad guys?
Really, though?
【Dario Amodei】
That's what we hope.
【Q27｜权力集中质疑】
【Emily Chang】
The criticism is
you're effectively deciding
who gets access
and who doesn't.
Why should anyone
be comfortable
if that kind of
concentration of power?
【Dario Amodei】
It wasn't like,
oh, it's so powerful
and let's decide
who gets the power.
It was a very specific
concern around cybersecurity.
And so the way
that we decided
who to give the model to
was grounded
in that specific fear.
There's obviously nuance
to decide, like,
where do you draw
that circle?
I think that's
really complicated.
I think we've tried
to be as publicly
open as possible
to say we're trying
our best to make
this decision well,
but, like,
we might not do it perfectly.
【Q28｜"营销说"与商业损失】
【Emily Chang】
What about the folks
who say this was
just good marketing?
【Dario Amodei】
You know,
we have suffered
enormously commercially
from not releasing
this model.
This model has
incredibly accelerated
research within
Anthropic
and production
in the next models.
It would do the same
in the outside world
if we were to release it.
This has hurt us
enormously commercially.
【Emily Chang】
Have you had to
make trade-offs already
that you're not
entirely comfortable with?
【Dario Amodei】
Throughout the entire
history of Anthropic
has been trade-offs,
right?
In some ideal world,
you would prefer to,
before you release
the first chatbot,
you know,
you could spend years
studying, you know,
every possible thing
that could go wrong
with it.
Now, we did delay.
We did delay
the initial release
of Claude,
but, you know,
we did it for a few months,
so everything
is a trade-off.
Now that we're in,
you know,
what I would describe
as a commercially
leading position,
we can afford
to move the dial
even further
towards being careful,
right?
That's what the Mythos
release was about,
right?
It's very hard
to do something
like that
if you're not
the leading player.
【Q29｜政府接管论】
【Emily Chang】
There's this argument,
why wouldn't the government
take you over?
Why would they let
a private company
control technology
that's so powerful?
【Dario Amodei】
So I think,
I actually think
that's a very,
that's a very serious question,
and I share those concerns.
I don't think the government
should outright
take us over.
Every previous
powerful technology
we've seen in history
was either built
by the government
or originated
with the government.
So nuclear weapons,
obviously,
you know,
initially built
by the government.
The internet,
GPS,
cell phones.
AI is the first technology
that's been built
in the private sector,
and where government
has not really
had a serious role
and is coming in
late to the game.
I think that's actually
a dangerous
and unstable situation.
It is not the situation
I would have chosen.
This technology,
I'm scared of companies
having it,
but I'm also scared
of government having it.
And then,
you know,
we need basic regulation
of the technology.
You know,
more and more,
as I've seen
what we've seen
with Mythos,
you know,
I think we need
to start doing
pre-release testing,
required pre-release testing,
testing and auditing
of the models.
【旁白】
This was an approach
the White House
rejected initially.
On his first day
back in office,
President Trump,
with the help
of former AI
and crypto czar
David Sachs,
dismantled
President Biden's
AI executive order
seeking guardrails,
instead favoring
a hands-off,
let Silicon Valley
do its thing approach.
【新闻画面】
We believe
that excessive regulation
of the AI sector
could kill
a transformative industry
just as it's taking off.
【旁白】
But with Mythos
and its national security
implications proving
hard to ignore,
the White House
now seems to want
to gatekeep
the world's
most powerful AI.
【Dario Amodei】
It's very funny to me
how there's a particular
group of people
in the tech world
in Silicon Valley.
They started with
the position of
even having transparency
around this technology,
even export control.
This is all
just totally
apocalyptically
destroy our potential
to create the technology.
It'll kill innovation.
And then as soon as
they see the first
real danger,
which I've been
expecting all along,
there's all this talk
of nationalization
and the government
should just seize it.
Come on, folks,
here.
You're yo-yoing
from the most extreme
anti-regulatory,
if you look at us
the wrong way,
you're destroying
the industry,
to, you know,
we need a more sensible,
moderate approach.
That's the one
we've been favoring
all along
because we've understood
the power of this technology.
We're not panicking.
We're not denying it.
We see the smooth exponential
and we're responding
to it appropriately.
【Q30｜Altman 家遇袭】
【旁白】
The reaction to AI right now,
it's intense.
Anthropic has built
this really loyal following.
There are some people
who just love
what they stand for,
but there have also been protests
right outside their office.
There's a lot of anxiety,
a lot of confusion.
There's some real anger
right now
about what's happening.
And it actually feels
like it's escalating.
【街头采访】
Artificial intelligence
is the next industrial revolution.
Oh...
Whoa!
【旁白】
If you look at the data,
people are more concerned
than excited
about what's going on.
They think the risks
outweigh the benefits.
And the truth is,
if you talk to the people
who are building this,
even they will tell you.
they don't fully know
how it's all going to play out.
【Emily Chang】
How do you think
about the weight
of this moment?
【Dario Amodei】
I worry
that something will go wrong.
You know,
are we doing literally
everything we can?
We're certainly trying our best.
We're certainly trying very hard.
What I want
is to create a situation
where if this set of people
can't do it,
it couldn't be done.
You can't guarantee success,
but maybe you can guarantee that.
【Emily Chang】
It's getting personal.
Sam Altman's home
down the street
has been attacked.
How is that affecting you?
【Dario Amodei】
It was really scary
to read that.
I mean, it was,
we were obviously
extremely relieved
that he and his family
were okay.
In general,
I think this is a time,
you know,
technologically,
politically,
where unfortunately
there's just a lot more
rhetoric and words
that I think can lead
to bad outcomes
and bad things happening.
I hope that this is a topic
we can all just debate,
you know,
as peacefully as possible.
It was scary to me too.
I mean, you know,
this is like a less savory
aspect of the exponential,
right?
That as AI gets more
and more of a big thing,
like, you know,
it becomes just such a big deal
to society.
There's more attention on it.
【Q31｜社媒封禁类比】
【Emily Chang】
There's been massive backlash
against social media.
Countries are starting to ban it.
Could that happen to AI?
【Dario Amodei】
I think it's,
it's absolutely possible.
If the social media companies
could go back in time
and see the world
that they see today,
would they do anything differently?
I like to think
the answer to that is yes.
I don't know.
If we sort of project
some of the challenges
that the social media companies
have faced around
child welfare,
mental health,
election integrity,
all of these topics,
we're really lucky
that we're,
we're second.
We view it as our job
to try and proactively
think about all of the things
that could go wrong.
Because if we don't,
who's going to?
You know,
I don't know
that they actually set out
to do the right thing
or make the world
a better place.
And so I don't think
if they were going back,
they would even knowing
what they do
and they certainly
should do things differently.
I don't know
if they actually will,
but we can't.
This is why we're trying
to get this right
the first time
instead of waiting
for things to go wrong,
then scrambling
to justify
why it's all okay.
The main way
I could see AI being,
you know,
banned or blocked
is if something
really went wrong.
And if something
really went wrong,
then maybe it deserves to be.
【Emily Chang】
You have technologists
saying it's going to be amazing
and others saying
it could be awful.
Where are you
on that spectrum?
【Dario Amodei】
I hope the best
but plan for the worst.
For me,
this is the most important
work I've ever done.
For some people,
it feels like
this is the last job
because this is sort of the,
it could mean
the end of work.
And I think for other people,
it's, you know,
like maybe it's not
the last job,
but it's existential
to get this right.
And so there's just
this kind of burden.
【Q32｜行业责任】
【Emily Chang】
If the impacts
could be as significant
as we're talking about,
as significant
as Anthropic
has warned about,
what responsibility
do you think Anthropic
has to cushion the blow?
What do you owe
the people whose lives
you've upended?
【Dario Amodei】
I think our view
has always been
we ultimately
are responsible
as an industry,
the industry
that's developing
this technology,
for thinking through
what are the risks?
What are the bad things
that could happen?
And if some of those
things come to pass,
what is our role
in helping to fix them?
That is our job, right?
We should not just say,
well, we were just
trying to grow the product
and suddenly there's
an entire generation
of young women
who have eating disorders
or who have
mental health problems
because, whoops,
we were just trying
to grow the product.
That's not the stance
that I think any
technology company
should take.
I don't think that's
the stance
that we're trying to take.
【旁白】
For a company
whose identity
is so wrapped up in
【Daniela Amodei】
We want to do this right.
We exist as an AI
safety company.
How can we just
help all of this
go well?
【旁白】
It can be hard
to understand
why Anthropic
is pushing so hard
to advance AI
while being so upfront
about the dangers.
In his essays,
Dario lays out
what the endgame
looks like if everything
goes right with AI,
a utopian future
where machines
and humans
work side by side.
AI, an inevitable force,
steered toward prosperity
rather than catastrophe.
To mitigate the devastation
of job loss,
he proposes solutions
like universal basic income
and progressive taxation
of AI companies.
But as the Amides [原文: Amides → 推测: Amodeis]
confront the messy realities
of power,
politics,
and profit,
the real test
is whether that
founding mission
can survive the scale
of what they're building.
【Q33｜凭什么信任你】
【Emily Chang】
Google started with the motto
Don't be evil.
A founding promise
the company quietly retired
as it grew.
You are building something
incredibly powerful
and stand to gain
enormously from it.
Why should we trust you?
【Dario Amodei】
I think starting
from a position
of distrust,
you know,
if you don't know
anything about me,
if you don't know anything
about Anthropic,
it's pretty rational.
I think Silicon Valley
has lost a lot
of the world's trust
and kind of has
to re-earn it.
And the message,
you know,
we're trying to send
is we're actually different.
And that has to be earned
in things that we actually do.
【Q34｜Szilard 与 Oppenheimer】
【Emily Chang】
I understand one of your favorite books
is The Making of the Atomic Bomb.
That is correct.
Do you see parallels
between yourself
and Oppenheimer?
【Dario Amodei】
The figure I most identified with
was Leo Zillard, [原文: Zillard → 推测: Szilard]
who was the one
who first had the idea
that there could be
a chain reaction.
Look,
my view is
we're not going to get through this
with, like,
larger-than-life personalities
or, like,
figures who try
and be at the center
of everything.
In some ways,
I actually see Oppenheimer
as a failure case,
as what should not happen.
There's a lot of powerful actors
who have interests here,
and the only way
it's going to end well
for everyone
is if there is some,
there's basically checks
and balances everywhere.
【Q35｜10-25% 与航空公司】
【Emily Chang】
You've said
there's roughly
a 10 to 25 percent chance
of civilizational collapse.
That is not insignificant.
Is there a scenario
where it's something
that Anthropic built
that caused that?
【Dario Amodei】
I mean,
I certainly hope not.
My view is that
that probability
comes from
the very straightforward
recipe of the technology,
the existence
of many countries
in the world,
the existence
of many companies
within an economy,
and new ones created
if the void isn't filled.
Like,
that's the dilemma
that we're in.
Half of what we do
within the company
is try and, you know,
reduce the risk
as much as we can,
but it's never
going to be zero.
Suppose there are a bunch
of, you know,
airline companies out there
and you're like,
well, I'm going to make
an airline company
that's safer.
It can both be the case
that, you know,
your airline company
is 10 times safer
than all the other
airline companies,
but if someone
comes and asks you,
like,
can you guarantee
that your airplane
will never crash,
I mean,
how could you?
How could you possibly?
【Emily Chang】
But if there was
a 25 percent chance
of an airplane crashing,
you wouldn't get
on that plane.
【Dario Amodei】
That's right.
25 percent is too high.
We're trying to make
that probability
much, much lower.
That's,
that is,
that is the goal.
【Q36｜Calypso】
【Emily Chang】
How do you find your zen?
How do you relax?
【Dario Amodei】
You know,
honestly,
a lot of it's just
exposure to it,
you know,
sometimes I'll just like,
you know,
I'll just take a weekend
and I'll like play
some video games,
sometimes with Daniela.
Me and my wife
go to Italy sometimes.
We have a horse there,
so I'll just,
I'll just sit there next,
I'll just,
I'll just look at our horse
and I'll be like,
you know,
Calypso,
who's our horse,
like, you know,
she doesn't know
about any of this.
Like,
she's just a happy horse,
like.
[笑声段：转写幻觉，重复 "Ha ha!" 已合并]